Freaking OUT! Brown stains on my gunite pool!

[dblomom]

I have an 8 month old gunite pool in Oklahoma. It is 15,000 gallons and is not heated. I have an ozone chlorinator. I am battling brownish stains (similar to what a tea stain looks like) all over the bottom (an some up the sides), they seem to be really bad where the steps are (in that "L" spot that's hard to reach w/ the brush). I read several of the threads here regarding stains and did the Vitamin C test. In less than an hour, I have a humongous BLACK stain where the Vitamin C "sock" was on the bottom of my pool!!! I am FREAKING out b/c this black stain is much larger than the brownish stain was to begin with! My levels are all normal/balanced (chlorine, Ph & total alkalinity). The pool temperature is 78F. Did I mention that I'm freaking out??
I hope someone has a cure-all...
Thanks in advance...

[aylad]

When you say your "levels are all normal/balanced", what do you mean? Can you please post test results (taken with drop-based test, not strips). Also, what is your CYA level?

What is the source of your fill water? Is it known to have metals?

[dblomom]

Janet,

Within in 30 minutes of noticing the big, black stain, it has disappeared! This was a huge blackish-purple stain that was very alarming and is now gone.

I will apologize up front for my ignorance regarding pool chemicals(which may be part of my problem, unfortunately!). Here's what I have:

The total alkalinity: 90
Ph: 7.7
Chlorine:2.0
Temp: 78
CYA:not sure what this is...is this the chlorine level?

Also, the water is very clear!

The pool was filled from my garden hose, which I am on a county water supply. I do not know if it has metals. At this point, I'm leaning towards thinking I have an algae problem because the Vitamin C tab doesn't seem to diminish the stain however, a chlorine tab does seem to lighten the stain. Also, my husband discovered (when we were out working with all of this a little bit ago) that the string that holds the thermometer in the pool is green (it's a white string).

Thanks for your response! I am a pool virgin, but am really trying hard to learn this!

[aylad]

CYA is stabilizer--it wouldn't be in the pool unless you added it, either by adding straight cyanuric acid, or using dichlor powder or trichlor pucks for chlorination. Its purpose is to protect your chlorine from the sun so that it remains in the pool to fight bacteria and viruses in the water. You need to know what your CYA level is, because that's going to determine the amount of chlorine you need to keep in your pool to keep the water clean. (see the best guess chlorine chart link in my sig for more info on this).

You should be able to call the county and ask for lab testing results of the water--they should be able to tell you whether or not it contains metals.

If your white thermometer string is green, then you have algae in the pool. Normally I would say go ahead and shock it, but first you need to know your CYA level and if there are any metals in your water.

[dblomom]

OK, so I visited my Pool company and they checked my CYA for me....they say it's 100.
I have a call in to the county about the metal levels in the water-the Pool company also recommended I do that.
The Pool company is leaning towards iron (especially after the ascorbic "vitamin C" test I did and it turning the spot black and then disappearing) and they have recommended I do the following:
Check the pH and make sure it is b/w 7.0-7.4 and that the chlorine is 1.0 or under. With the pump on, add the "Simplicity" brand Spot Cleaner (after it's been mixed w/ water in a bucket). After an hour, add the "Simplicity" brand Super Metal Control. After another 4-8 hours, add "OMNI" brand Filter Aid. Then, take the filter apart and clean it (b/c I guess the iron is supposed to have been "trapped" in the filter after all of this is said and done).
I hope this sounds right b/c I spent a small fortune at the Pool company service dept. today. :-/

[PoolDoc]

Uh-h. You need to pick who's helping you on this. You'll end up with the worst of both worlds, going from here, to the store, and back to here.

I think maybe you didn't see some of the email replies. I'm going to add them here. I emailed Chem_Geek about what happened and here are his responses:


Nope. Ascorbic acid is acidic and a reducing agent. The brown turning black sound more like oxidation. I noticed you asked her for the brand — maybe there was something else in the Vitamin C tablet. Either that or maybe the ascorbic acid reduced iron but then there was extra chlorine that re-oxidized it black. Since the ascorbic acid was in a sock, that sounds most logical since it probably wasn’t enough to remove all the chlorine in the pool.
and

Normally, stains don’t reappear after even a local ascorbic acid treatment, but maybe this particular pool has a LOT of iron in it. Probably doing your technique of trying to capture the iron in the filter by raising the pH through the skimmer would work — assuming the filter is a sand filter that could be readily backwashed.

After he sent me those comments, I got your email about the black spot going away AND about the Vitamin C clearing the spot around the tablet. That made things fairly clear: you have iron stains. The vitamin C in a sock reduced the stains, in place, to a black "ferrous" iron state, but that gradually disappeared because ferrous iron soluble. The more direct application of vitamin C behaved in a more typical fashion.

If you're going to follow their program, that's fine. It sound similar to what I would have done, but I'm not sure because I'm just guessing at what the chemicals are. Also, the program they've got you on is likely to allow algae to grow, while you work on iron, and I'm not sure if that's what you want to do.

Regardless, do lower the pH. But, if you lower the chlorine to 1.0 with a CYA of 100 . . . your algae is going to take over, and the pool store should have known that and warned you.

Your choice though.

[dblomom]

Ben,
Thank you for all of the information!
One question I did have was regarding our ozone-chlorinator; the pool company told me today that with the ozone system, the likelihood of algae growth is minimal, which is why they felt comfortable with them advising to take our chlorine down so low. Do you know anything about the ozone system in regards to this? Like you stated in your reply, I really don't want the WORST of both worlds! But I spent quite some time with them (the pool guys) today and they had me feeling pretty confident in their plan when I left.
Thanks again!

Amy

[Watermom]

Let me give you some stuff to read about ozone issues. I think you'll change your mind.

http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/ozone-as-a-swimming-pool-sanitizer.html

[PoolDoc]

What model do you have? I'm not familiar with an "ozone-chlorinator". Chlorinators, yes. Ozonators, yes. But not ozone-chlorinators.

I'm sort of puzzled. One reason people selling ozonators try to keep chlorine levels low, is that otherwise, the chlorine will simply destroy all the ozone. Ozone and chlorine engage in mutual destruction reactions. But, you can't replace chlorine with ozone, because ozone is too toxic (MUCH more dangerous than chlorine gas) and too insoluble to use as a sanitizing residual. For this reason, US ozonators have VERY low output levels; European style ozonators, with much higher outputs, incorporate a de-ozonation state, for swimmer safety. By contrast, chlorine gas is freely soluble in water, and is severely irritating BEFORE it becomes dangerous.

The common practice in the pool industry is to take a product or method that has significant value in a limited application, and try to apply it everywhere:
+ UV irradiation has some application to INDOOR pools, and to public pools at high risk for amoebic infections -- but not on outdoor home pools.
+ Sodium bromide has some limited value to OUTDOOR pools with HIGH stabilizer levels, but no where else. But one chemical company tries to get it in ALL pools.
+ Phosphate removers can occasionally be helpful, but most pools don't need them.
+ Supplemental algicides are not needed on pools that maintain adequate chlorine levels, but pool stores sell them for use on EVERY pool.
+ Metal sequestrants can have a TEMPORARY value on pools that are removing or preventing stains, but have NO value for the majority of pools that have no metals.

. . . and ozone has some value in home spas, but has no value that we've been able to determine on outdoor home pools.

[dblomom]

Wow, thank you all for the information. This site is a wealth of knowledge but I will admit, I don't know a lot about any of this. After all of the information on here, I feel even more confused than ever. I really just want to swim in our pool, maintain it properly and prevent our children from growing a tail after being in the water. I feel completely ignorant and told someone the other day that I feel like I've bought a Lamborghini with no idea of how to drive a shift stick.
With that said, I am probably using the wrong terminology...our "Ozone Generator" is manufactured by SmartPure, Ultra Pure Water Quality Inc. and the pamphlet has our pool manufacturer stamped on it (as if it were manufactured by them, which it probably was not). The pamphlet has a "part #" stamped on it, but no model number. The Part # is 3404275.
I followed the pool company's direction on the steps for the metal removal...I still have the stains. They don't even appear to have been lifted a little bit.
Thanks, again. I know some of this is trial and error and I feel like I'm really getting the hang of the "error" part. ;)

[waterbear]

SmartPure is the name that Blue Haven pools puts on their SWCGs, Ozone units, and Mineral cartridge systems. As to who actually makes them, it's anyone's guess. This way Blue Haven keeps people coming back to them (and keeps their profit margins up). Del Ozone does make a combo ozone/SWCG called the TrioPure and Autopilot makes the CoPilot addon ozone unit for their PoolPilto SWCGs. My monoy is on the unit being a Del Ozone one.

[PoolDoc]

I know some of this is trial and error and I feel like I'm really getting the hang of the "error" part. ;)

I'll have to remember that one!

OK.

1. Turn off the ozone generator; it just complicates things. If you can get money back do so, but turn it off regardless.
2. See if you can get the HTH 6-way kit at your Walmart (check availability (http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668))
3. If not, get a cheap OTO/phenol red test kit. You'll still need the K2006 (see the test kit info page in my sig), but the regular suppliers are currently out.
4. Lower your pH to near 7.0, using muriatic acid (guide page linked in my sig). Keep it in the 7.0 - 7.2 range.
5. Use PLAIN 6% household bleach to maintain chlorine levels in the OTO yellow to medium yellow range.
6. Remove tabs and ALL chemicals from your skimmer, feeders (if any) and system. Then, use the skimmer to add bleach, 1/2 gallon ONLY at a time.
7. Do NOT add anything to increase alkalinity.
8. DO get your pool store to check your calcium level, and tell us what it is.
9. I'm going to have to wait awhile for the stuff in your pool to break down, before we can use other stain chemicals. Otherwise, we could get into an unpleasant mix.
10. Consider using CuLator:

1 ppm Culator, direct from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003C5PNUW/poolbooks)
1.5 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004Y6RK3Q/poolbooks)
4 ppm Culator, sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007AHDMTM/poolbooks)
We don't know that they work . . . but we think they do, and IF they do, they'll remove any metals that are STILL in your water.

If you get them, get this, too:

Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004XUIRQW/poolbooks)
and put the CuLator UNDER the sock -- that way, you'll be able to use it till it's saturated with metals, rather than having it get plugged with pool goo.

11. See if you can get some polyquat locally (info here (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/polyquat.html))
If not, you can get it here:

Kem-Tek 311-6 Pool and Spa 60-Percent Concentrated Algaecide, 1 Quart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0030BEI0Y/poolbooks)
You need to keep your chlorine low, to avoid further staining; the polyquat will help prevent algae for now.

12. Do a white bucket test for metals in your fill water -- we need to figure out how the metals are getting into your pool:

+ Get a WHITE clean 5 gallon plastic bucket.
+ Add 4 gallons of whatever water you fill your pool with
+ Add 1/4 cup of plain 6% bleach and 1/8 cup of baking soda. Mix and cover.
+ After 24 hrs, inspect for sediment. Note quantity and color. Recover
+ After 24 more hours, inspect again. Let us know what you find.
THEN

+ repeat the process with your POOL water.


. . . that's enough for now.

[dblomom]

waterbear/PoolDoc,

We have had a TON of rain (and bad storms) the last several days so my pool problems have been put on the back burner. We are supposed to have better weather this weekend so I hope to have something to report back with the information you provided in your post(s). Thanks!

Amy

[PoolDoc]

Just don't make the mistake many do, of letting chlorine levels drop when it rains!

[Watermom]

Funny, I was just thinking the very same thing!

[dblomom]

PoolDoc,

I'm looking at the links you provided and getting ready to place my order(s) on Amazon...
how do I know which CuLator product that you recommended of the 3 to purchase? I can't seem to figure out which one I need.

TYA,

Amy

[PoolDoc]

Did you do the bucket test?

The CuLator products are distinguished by how much metal they can collect. If you have a LOT of metal (lots of colored sediment in the bucket test) OR if you are pretty sure you have metals in your FILL water, you might want to get the biggest one. If you do NOT have much colored sediment, and do NOT have metal in your fill water, then the smallest will probably work.

But . . . either way, you probably want to get skimmer socks, to protect the CuLater from gunk that could otherwise clog it, and render it useless.

[dblomom]

No, I did not do the bucket test...yet But now that you've explained it again, it makes sense that I need to do that first.
Thanks, I'll get that done and report back.
Until then, thx!...
Amy

[dblomom]

OK, life (and a ton of rain) got in the way, but I have done the bucket test. It yielded zero sediment in the bottom of the bucket. Do I still buy the CuLator product(s) you recommended?

Also, I do have an algae problem. Not sure if I had the algae all along or just because of all of the rain. I tried to stay on top of the chlorine test, but apparently, failed. I know, you warned me. :( I shocked it last night, after brushing the visible algae off of the tile line(s). I turned the chlorine level up a bit as well. The water is still crystal clear.

While scrubbing the algae, my husband dove down to the bottom where the drain is. Is it normal 1) for the drain to only pull from maybe 1/3 of it's length? (it's not a round drain but a horizontal one) and 2) for the 2/3 that it's not pulling from to be very dark (maybe even greenish) in color?

As far as the spots that initially got me to this site, they are still there, they don't appear to be any bigger, smaller, darker or lighter.

I feel like I have so many questions, I hope I'm not too all-over-the-place. I've given up on my pool company; I called them yesterday to get 4 lbs of shock for my chlorine pool (I called 1st b/c they're sort of a drive for me). Low-and-behold, they didn't have any. What pool company doesn't have shock? Really?

TYA,
Amy

[PoolDoc]

Hi Amy;

You can shock your pool with bleach -- 3 gallons of PLAIN 6% household bleach will do it, unless your CYA level is high. (Did you ever get a K2006?)

Regarding the CuLater, we recently got a bit more evidence that that work. So, if you don't mind the expense, keeping one in your skimmer will reduce the likelihood of an recurrence of your stains. And, it should last till it is used up, if you keep it from getting contaminated with pool goo, so remember to get skimmer socks, if you get the Culator.. I wouldn't depend on one to last more than a season, though. You can get the small one, if you like, since you may not even have any iron. If it DOES begin collecting iron, it will discolor.

You *really* need a K2006, even if you don't use it regularly. I don't know what your TA, CH, or CYA levels are, so I can't advise you as well as I'd like.

Also, if you'd please complete our new Pool Chart form -- it takes about 30 seconds -- we can answer your questions more appropriately.

Pool Chart Entry Form (http://goo.gl/cNPUO)
Pool Chart Results (http://goo.gl/PXaLu)

And, one more thing: you did the bucket test, on your pool, right? If so, you should ALSO do it on your tap water, to see if there are metals in the water you are adding to your pool!

[dblomom]

PoolDoc,

I will order the K2006 today. (I wasn't sure what to order (or not) and was under the impression to do the bucket test)...also, when I did the bucket test, I did it w/ hose water that we use fill the pool. Are you saying I should also do it for the tap water as in in the house?
I will also order the CuLator. Is it probable that I have and algae problem AND a metal problem (even though the bucket test yielded no sediment)?
And when I shock the pool w/ bleach, do I just dump it right in to the pool water?

Thanks!!!
Amy

[dblomom]

Is this the K2006 I should get? (I couldn't view your signature, I don't think I have permission)
http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Complete-FAS-DPD-Water-K-2006/dp/B0002IXIIG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339431118&sr=8-1&keywords=K2006+pool
Also, I got the metal levels from my water supply, are you interested in those at all? Or should we just go off the test kit results once I get it?
Thanks!!
Amy

[Watermom]

Your hose and tap water are the same thing, so you don't need to test both. Also, that is the correct kit. Not sure why you couldn't see the link in the signature. Not sure that it matters, but were you logged in or not when you tried to see the link? If you try again and still can't see it, let us know and we'll have to investigate to see why not. Obviously, we would prefer that you order through our Amazon link so the Pool Forum gets a little commission on the sale. That helps keep the forum online and able to help people.

The K-2006 does not test for metals, so yes, please post the metals report from your water supply.

EDIT: I logged out and tried to access the testkit page from the link in my signature and I was able to do so, so it doesn't matter whether you were logged in or not when you tried. But, try again and let us know if it works.

[dblomom]

Watermom,

I tried to view it on your page/signature and again, it says I don't have permission. I was logged in. I feel so dumb! But, here's what it's doing:
I click on your name, it takes me to a page and asks me to log in (again), when I log in for the 2nd time, the message says:

"vBulletin Message

dblomom, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."


Regardless, I will order the test kit!

Here are the results given over the phone to me from my Rural Water Supply, I hope I spelled them correctly, I did only get a "C" in Chemistry:

sodium: 45.9 mg/Liter
THE REST ARE MEASURED IN PARTS/BILLION

Arsenic: Less than 2
Barium: 355
Beryllium: less than 2
Calcium: less than 2
Chromium: less than 10
Phylum: less than 1
Nickel: less than 10
Antimony: less than 2
Selenium: less than 10
Lead: none
Copper: none

I guess that's it for now, until my new test kit arrives...? If I should get more information/do anything else in the mean time, please advise.

As far as the bleach, do I just dump it in the pool? How long should I wait before swimming? What is the advantage of household bleach vs. chlorine shock?

THANKS!
Amy

[dblomom]

OH! I just figured out how to access the test kit through your signature. I was doing it incorrectly before! Ugh, I'm really not this "slow" when it comes to computers ~ just when it comes to pool maintenance! Thanks!!!!

Amy

[Watermom]

Glad you got it figured out.

You can add the bleach by pouring it slowly in front of a return jet. Wait 15 or 20 minutes before swimming to let it circulate. You don't want to swim into a 'hot pocket' of bleach!

The advantage of bleach is that it doesn't add any other stuff to your water like some other forms can. (Plus, it is available everywhere.) Sometimes, other forms of chlorine are appropriate depending on the situation. If a pool also needs calcium, using cal-hypo adds calcium as it chlorinates. if a pool needs CYA, then using either dichlor or trichlor adds CYA as well as chlorine. BUT.... you have to be careful when buying these types of chlorine because some manufacturers are starting to add a lot of unnecessary and often undesirable ingredients to them.

[PoolDoc]

If you fill with the hose, and bucket tested the hose water . . . then you tested the right thing. (Some homes have softeners, and the hose water does NOT go through the softener -- so you 'did good'!)

I'm not sure about the CuLator. If the expense is not a problem, and you can get both it, and the skimmer socks, you might want to do so. It will indicate (over time) if it's absorbing iron. If it does, that tells you (a) there was iron still in the pool, and (b) you may still have a problem. So, right now, I'd recommend it only as insurance AND as an indicator or 'test kit'.

What puzzles me is where you iron came from, if not the hose water. Wait -- I checked the chart -- you had water trucked in, right? It's ENTIRELY possible that you had iron in the water you purchases, EITHER from the source, OR from a rusty tanker!

If you will need to use trucked water in the future, that's definitely something to keep in mind, and something for which you should make preparations.

[Watermom]

If you fill with the hose, and bucket tested the hose water . . . then you tested the right thing. (Some homes have softeners, and the hose water does NOT go through the softener -- so you 'did good'!)


You are right. I hadn't thought about that possibility. I was just thinking the hose and tap are both municipal water, so it doesn't really matter which one you test. I guess that's why you are the PoolDoc and I am just the queen bee... er, I mean the Watermom!! :o:o:p

[dblomom]

The HIGHLY anticipated arrival of my K-2006 has occurred! I am now the proud owner. I just tested everything, I have no idea what it all means, but here's what I have:

FC: 4.0ppm
CC: 0.2 ppm
pH: 7.2
total alkalinity: 90ppm
Calcium hardness: 320
CYA: 90ppm

OK, so I posted the metal results from my local water supply in a previous post. Also to clarify, my water was from a hose and not trucked in. So, now what? :)

I think my thread has sort of been back and forth so just to paraphrase, I am dealing with:
1) brown stains, which btw have not gotten any bigger or smaller during this whole process over the last few weeks. Also, just b/c I could, I kept the water in my "white bucket test" for over a week and never had any sediment in the bottom, ever
2) algae, which I scrubbed w/ a brush off of the edge of the pool while I was in it yesterday
3)perfectly, crystal clear water that my whole family has been in during this process.

Slowly but surely, I a might be learning! I really don't want to hire out the maintenance of my pool, I just really want to know what I am doing.

I do still need to order my CuLator & skimmer socks. I got so hung up on this K-2006, that I let that purchase go to the back burner.

THANKS!!!!!

[dblomom]

Should I start a new thread to get some direction on where to go now that I have the results up from my K-2006 test kit?
THANKS!
Amy

[BigDave]

Congratulations on getting your new k-2006 - it'll make life with your pool much better. One note: there's no need to use the 25ml sample for chlorine testing, the 10ml sample is fine and your reagents will last longer.

Your FC of 4.0ppm is too low for your CYA of 90ppm (hence you have algae). Per Ben's Best Guess Chart (http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/best-guess-swimming-pool-chlorine-chart.html) your normal FC is between 5ppm and 10ppm. Never let it go below 5 and I'd try to stay on the high side of the normal range.

One metal missing from the list above is iron. Brown stains may be Iron, may be something else.
Did you do the bucket test on pool water and hose water or just on hose water?

Your bucket (hose water) test showed no brown staining.
Your Vitamin C test brought a strange black/purple temporary stain but did not clear the brown stain.
The brown stain was somewhat lifted by a chlorine tab (trichlor, I presume).

Maybe you don't have a metal issue (sorry to disagree with you Ben).

Maybe the brown stains are algae (or something), and so is the stuff in your main drain.

If you didn't do a bucket test on your pool water, I'd recommend you do one now. If the pool water bucket test shows no staining, then I'd recommend you Shock the pool.

How have you been chlorinating? shocking?

[dblomom]

BigDave,

Thanks for the reply! I'll remember to use the smaller sample next time I'm testing the chlorine. ;)

I am going to spend some time this evening studying Ben's Best Guess Chart. I will also do the bucket test on the pool water as I only did it on the hose water that was used to fill the pool. I'll report back with those results in a day or so.

In the mean time, to answer your question my chlorination has been from the chlorinator-thing that was installed on the pool pump (I'm so ignorant, my apologies) as well as some shock after the rains (and when the chlorine level is low). Do some people only supply chlorine to their pool via shock and just dumping it in?

As foreign as this all is to me, I am wondering if the brown stains aren't from algae as well. If it is algae, would the stains be able to be lifted once I get the levels under control?

Until I report back w/ the results of the pool water bucket test....

MUCH GRATITUDE!
Amy