Fiberglass pool badly stained

[alohafiberglasspools]

Hi Hoogie,
I think I can help you. First, the staining you see is a symptom of a much more expensive problem - corrosion of your copper heat exchanger. Metal corrosion is caused by acidic water, or water that has too low pH, therefore too much acid. Remember that in a fiberglass pool, the pool surface does not alter the water chemistry at all. If you are using tablet form chlorine (3" or 1" tablet) this is likely the cause. These little tablets are really convenient, but very, very acidic. Tablet chlorine has a pH of 2.9 - a lemon for comparative only has a pH of 2.0!! So, as they dissolve, they drop acid into the water. In a fiberglass pool, the surface isn't dissolving alkalinity into the water (as plaster does) so there is nothing to counterbalance this effect.

First to prevent the problem, watch your pH carefully and adjust weekly to 7.6. This will protect your very expensive heat exchanger also. Your test kit will tell you that 7.2 is "normal" however, we are "reading colors" which is a subjective matter. Keeping your pH a tish on the high side is less destructive than on the low side of normal, and you have a cushion, just in case you go away and forget to check it. Low pH is very destructive!

Now, how to fix this problem?? Easy. You can, of course use muriatic acid on a fiberglass pool, provided it is a quality shell. If it is an Aloha Fiberglass Pool, there is no problem whatsoever. I can't speak for other manufacturers. Be careful, though, Muriatic acid is nasty stuff. Wear your protective gear if you use it. But, there is another product that is nealy 100% effective at removing the stains, then keeping them away- Metal Magic by Haviland. 800-333-0400. Unlike Jack's Magic, which works some of the time, but not all of the time, because it is a sequestrant, not a remover. The first time you suprchlorinate, you destroy the protection. We've had amazing success with Metal Magic.

To keep the stains away, keep that pH at 7.6 check weekly and adjust as needed. Keep a metal removing agent in the water at all times. Metal Magic is a good product for that.

[waterbear]

Hi Hoogie,

But, there is another product that is nealy 100% effective at removing the stains, then keeping them away- Metal Magic by Haviland. 800-333-0400. Unlike Jack's Magic, which works some of the time, but not all of the time, because it is a sequestrant, not a remover. The first time you suprchlorinate, you destroy the protection. We've had amazing success with Metal Magic.

My builder gave me two bottles of Metal Magic for my fiberglass pool after putting one in himself. It was no more effective than Jack's purple stuff that I also used. Looking up the MSDS for both products I found that they are both phosphonic acid derivatives as are the majority of stain and metal products on the market. My problem was a bit of rust staining and some concrete that hardened on the steps of the pool from the construction phase. The staining disappeard right away but the builder is still trying to get rid of the concrete! I think his theory was the low pH caused by these types of products would help dissolve the concrete.

[hoogie]

I'm finally stain free !!

What I tried with the pool filled with water:
Jack's magic
Abscorbic acid
Oxalic Acid
Proteam Metal Magic
Various metal stain removing agents
Scrubbing
Vitamin c in a sock

Abscorbic acid was the most promising but it only lightened the stains a bit even after 20 lbs in a 7000 gallon pool.

What finally worked for me:

Drained pool
Sprayed sides and bottom with a 1 to 1 mix of muriatic acid/water.
Tougher areas got straight muriatic acid.
Rinse pool, drained whatever water was left.
Refilled pool and used a metal remover, sorry can't remember the brand but was used as a precaution.

Muriatic acid is nasty stuff and even with protective clothing on I got a few burns on my skin. 1 to 1 mix didn't smell that bad but the straight stuff had a gagging smell once applied and if it weren't for it being a good windy day when I did it, I'd probably be dead.

Not suggesting that anyone else drain their pool but for me after probably $600 in metal removers, scrubbing, mopping stuff on under water, etc. draining and spraying was a last resort and it worked beautifully. My pool and water look cleaner and brighter than ever. If I ever run into this problem again I'll be draining and spraying in an instant. It took one day from start to being full of clean water again.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and support.

Hoog

[ivyleager]

Congratulations!! Now, enjoy your pool.

[duraleigh]

Whoa, Guys, you've misread his posts (not that I've ever done that in my life )

The "pool" side of his exchanger is stainless steel...not copper. the "boiler" side is copper and it never touches pool water.

Secondly, I'm a little mixed up. Using muriatic to clean up an acid caused stain doesn't make sense to me. I'm missing something but I don't know what.

Off the subject, but muriatic is quite good at removing green masonry.....it's effectiveness diminishes as the masonry cures.

Dave S.

[waterbear]

Whoa, Guys, you've misread his posts (not that I've ever done that in my life )

The "pool" side of his exchanger is stainless steel...not copper. the "boiler" side is copper and it never touches pool water.
Yes but he stated that he found the source of the staining , corroded galvanized pipes which means the stains were iron--the brown stain commenly known as "rust" and he replaced them with pvc (the pipes, not the stains!)
Secondly, I'm a little mixed up. Using muriatic to clean up an acid caused stain doesn't make sense to me. I'm missing something but I don't know what.

The stain was caused by iron, not acid.
Chemistry 101 here(it won't be pretty!)....Ferric oxide (rust) is FE2O3 (sorry no subscripts) which means the iron is in it's trivalent form (+++ charge) which is not soluable. HCl will convert the iron to it's bivalent form (++ charge) which IS soluable and the iron goes back into solution in the water as an ion FE++. This is the way all those metal treatments and stain removers basically work on metal. They don't get rid of them they just put them into solution again ready to drop out when you least expect it. If you have ever needed to use one and the water in the pool has not been changed there is a very real possibility that you will continue to need to use them based on the chemistry of what they actually do.


Now to answer his questions. Since it has been determined that the HCL wont hurt the fiberglass pool and he intends to drain it that is probably the best way to get rid of the metals since he can rinse it afterward and drain to waste again. As far as treating the fill water, there are filters designed to remove iron specifically. If the levels are high that might be the best course.
Dave S.

Hope that makes everything clear

[duraleigh]

Mark,

This thread has become as convoluted as any post I've seen lately. I'm going to drop out with these thoughts.

I don't think it has been determined that acid will not harm your fibreglas. It probably won't, but nothing in this thread promises that.

Secondly, I would be very careful draining that pool. Fibreglas pools are designed to be kept full and draining one would, IMHO, jeopardize the structural integrity of your pool.

Dave S.

[PoolDoc]

First, the staining you see is a symptom of a much more expensive problem - corrosion of your copper heat exchanger.

but . . .

Last year I noticed that below the water line was becoming stained and couldn't figure out why. Tried metal out, jack's magic and a couple of other products with no results. Fast forward to now, pool is drained down about 1/3 and the staining is really bad, about the color of oak from the water line down. Figured I'd try some muriatic acid on a test area and it worked great for bringing it almost back to white. Gave the test area a good rinse when I was done.

Michelle, acid does not usually remove copper stains from surfaces. Copper stains are black or green-to-blue, not "oak" color.

Also, there are NO metal control products that are "removers". Proper use of some of them, IN CONJUNCTION with filtration, can sometimes 'stain' the filter, instead of the pool.

If you choose to address chemical issues, please be careful to post based on your own field experience, rather than what you've been taught in a sales meeting. Many of the things that everybody in the pool knows to be true . . . aren't actually true. So, if you don't know something to be a fact from your own experience, as a service tech or a chemist or a manufacturing engineer, please don't post it as if it's true. Instead, report it as "many in the pool industry think . . . " whatever it was you wanted to state.

We'd welcome any genuine expert knowledge you have . . . such as specific information about your company's products, or about FG pools generally, especially if you also know ways to solve those problems. "Poolsean" does this very well with salt products, including his own.

But, please avoid offering generic solutions that someone in your company believes in, unless you know for a fact that these solutions are valid ones. Using a liquid metal control product, like ProTeam's "Metal Magic" will not, all by itself, solve problems with metal staining. And the HEDP based "Metal Magic" will do virtually nothing to solve problems with the iron stains that are Hoogie's problem. Nor, as far as I know, will Haviland's product, which is called "Stain Elimitor" (their spelling, not mine!), not "Metal Magic".

Also, please note that I've added the required ID signature to your profile, so that any future posts will be properly identified, as required by the Forum TOS.

Thanks,

Ben

Metal Magic (MSDS showing HEDP content attached):

[hoogie]

Thanks all for the advice. Some good stuff in there.

I've been waiting until I had some info to pass on but unfortunately just looking for more advice.

I finally got in touch with someone at the pool manufacturer who had somewhat of a clue. Can't drain it or I void my warranty. They recommended proteam metal magic and said they would ship me some. Been waiting 3 weeks now, calling every couple of days and hearing excuse after excuse of why it didn't ship yet. I'm skeptical that it will work anyway. I've probably spent $300 bucks or so in the last year for metal something or others that did nothing but take the green color out of my wallet.

I read with interest about vitamin c. I took a tablet that I had, rubbed it on a spot for 30 seconds or so and the spot was nice and white after. Looks like it might work.

I also read about adding muriatic acid to the water to bring the ph real low to dissolve the stains then add a metal remover to capture and filter it out. Unfortunately no details other than read the bottle. The bottle of course doesn't say "If your a moron and have badly stained your pool add this amount" Anyone heard of using that?

I know I can get muriatic acid locally but not bulk vitamin c. I'd have to wipe out the vitamin section from every walmart for a 20 mile radius.

Anyone heard of the muriatic acid route before?

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice,

Mark

[Maxout]

hoogie, There is a link to an online supplier of bulk ascorbic acid (vitamin C) on the first page of this thread.