A picture is worth a thousand words . . .

[Pamsel]

Well, my 6:00 pm CL & PH are:

CL 6.0
PH 7.8

I am convinced that I still have algae or I don't think I'd be losing that much CL during the day - even on a sunny day. I took another picture of the steps tonight, after not brushing or vacuuming for a day so that you can see what has settled out on the top step and see how yellow the second step is, due to what has settled on it. How can algae still be alive and growing after all this chlorine??

http://www.mtco.com/~aug20/6-13-06.jpg

I asked about this last week but didn't pursue it - but how do I know if I have a filtration problem? I am thinking that may be it. It really doesn't matter what I pour into this pool - NOTHING CHANGES!! I have put almost 85 gallons of Chlorine in the pool and in the past two weeks, 2 gallons of acid with almost no results. Tonight, my filter pressure guage is spasmodically hovering between 35-40 and it has always run steadily at 18-20. Even when I backwashed, it didn't change, so I don't know if that means the guage broke today or if this indicates something going on with the filter.

I am getting desperate for some answers!

[KurtV]

Pam, Your alkalinity is very high. That's what is making it difficult to get your pH down. Your high pH is probably limiting the effectiveness of your chlorine and that may well be contributing to your difficulty with killing the algae.

I'd get the pH down (no matter how much acid that takes), keep your chlorine at shock levels, and have patience. You can lower the alkalinity once the algae problem is resolved.

Best of luck.

[Pamsel]

I just read on a lowering alkalinity thread that one should get the PH down and then aerate to lower TA - that aeration will raise PH. Is this correct? I've been aearating 24/7 for most of two weeks, trying to lower my PH & TA. Have I been doing this wrong and causing my PH to stay high? I really am confused as to what to be working on and in what order. Some say to get the algae taken care of first and then work on the PH. Others say get that PH and TA down now! I really am confused about all of this. I have mentioned a couple of times that I'm aerating, but until now, no one mentioned that it could be adding to my high PH problem. I guess I have so many issues going on, no one can catch them all!

Just saw your message, Haze. I think I need to go stop the aerating for now. When I backwash, I do not get much coming out. The water is greenish at first, but clears up fairly quickly...not much else. A couple of weeks ago, the water was brown for a good minute before clearing up when I backwashed.

[haze_1956]

Same thought at same time - It's like telepathy !! LOL

I saw the picture had a lot of dirt on steps so something is dying.

Pool really should be a lot clearer after 2 weeks of high CL

I agree with stopping aeration and see if the acid will then lower PH

High pressure and no real dirt on backwash could mean filter is clogged. Maybe time to open it and check how junked up the sand is.

[mbar]

Pam, I was wondering about your filter too. It seems not to be filtering too well - since there is no change in the appearance of the water no matter what. I am convinced now that it is algae - I think something is wrong with the filter, especially that there isn't much in the backwash. Your water seemed to be cleaner in the other photos after vacuuming to waste - if it was just the color of the water, there wouldn't be all of the stuff on the bottom of the pool. You really will have to dose the pool with acid. Yes, while aerating it, your ph will rise as your alkalinity lowers - but only when you get your ph as low as 7.0 - 7.2. So I don't think you have been doing anything, becuase the ph has never been low enough to lower the alkalinity - I hope you understand this - if you don't please ask, I will try to explain it better. I would ask in the pool construction and repair forum about what could be wrong with the filter. I was trying to find out the difference between chelating and sequestering the metals, but they both seem to do the same thing. I know the chelating copper algacides have the copper binding so that it doesn't fall out onto the pool, but so does the sequesterant. If someone else can explain it I would really appreciate it.

[waterbear]

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!!! DO NOT TRY AND TEST OR AJUST YOUR pH WHEN THE CHLORINE LEVELS ARE ABOVE ABOUT 10 PPM. YOU WILL GET INTERFERANCE AND A FALSE HIGH pH READING. From two of your posts above:
CL 14-15
PH 8.0
and
CL 6.0
PH 7.8

Sorry for shouting like that! Here are my thoughts, I could be wrong.
The green color does look like copper, even with the sequesterant you might be oxidizing the copper with the high clorine levels. I think the stuff in the pool is dead algae now and the filter is not taking it out for some reason. What kind of filter do you have? You might want to make sure it is working properly. Is the pressure reading normal? If it is a sand filter you might have channeling in it. You can clean the sand if that is the case. If it is a sand filter you can also add a bit of DE to it (enought to raise the pressure 1psi) This can help it filter out the finer stuff. Try letting the chlorine drop to normal levels and hit it with a seqesterant again. Jack's Magic Blue Stuff is designed specifically for copper. You might want to try that and see if it clears the green. Get your chlorine and pH levels to where the bottle says before treating. If it works THEN lower your TA!

[mbar]

Waterbear, Pamsel had put in a lot of sequesterant, that is why I am having trouble thinking it is copper - although the first set of pictures she has here (the last two) the water looks clear green, which does look more like copper coloring the water. But she is losing chlorine fast, and the stuff in the last picture she posted looks more like algae than anything. My thought is that if she lowers the ph and alkalinity, the chlorine will be more effective in killing the algae, plus you know high chlorine levels and high chlorine are what make metals fall out of suspension - there doesn't seem to be any staining on the steps in the first set of pictures. This is a very confusing case - maybe you can help - you are great with the chemistry - what is the difference between a chelating product and a sequestering product? I also think there may be a filtering problem - because there isn't much coming out with the backwash - and the pressure is at 40, when it ususally is aroung 18. Could channeling be the problem? You can read Pamsels other posts in the metals forum, and maybe you have some ideas that can help. Thanks!

[waterbear]

Waterbear, Pamsel had put in a lot of sequesterant, that is why I am having trouble thinking it is copper - although the first set of pictures she has here (the last two) the water looks clear green, which does look more like copper coloring the water. But she is losing chlorine fast
Yes, during the day and she has very little CYA in the water...she said either 0 or 25 ppm! Her chlorine has been holding at night and burning off during the day!
, and the stuff in the last picture she posted looks more like algae than anything.
I suspect it is dead algae and for some reason her filter is not getting it out
My thought is that if she lowers the ph and alkalinity, the chlorine will be more effective in killing the algae, plus you know high chlorine levels and high chlorine are what make metals fall out of suspension - there doesn't seem to be any staining on the steps in the first set of pictures.
But she has put in a LOT of sequesterant!
This is a very confusing case - maybe you can help - you are great with the chemistry - what is the difference between a chelating product and a sequestering product?
From my understanding very little, It has to do with how it deactivates the metals. chelating agents have a heterocylic ring struture that forms a complete ring with the metals, sequestering agents form stable non reactive compounds with the metals but are not necessisarily in a ring structure. Chelating agents will sequester metals but not all sequesterants chelate. EDTA (reagent #3 in the CH test is a chelating agent. It chelates the calcium in the water and when there is non left to react with the indicator it changes color from pink to blue. The indicator itself is a chelating agent that forms a pink complex when metal are reacted with it and blue when there are non. EDTA is a stronger sequsterant than the calcon indicator so it will 'unhook' the calcium and other metals from the calcon and 'hook' it to itself Phosphonic acid derivatives are what is usuallly found in metal seqeusterants. This group of chemicals tends to create very stable compounds that are more resistant to temperature and ph effects than EDTA, Sequestering is a much broader description. Chelation is a specific type of sequestering. The terms tend to be used (incorrectly) interchangably. By the way, sequstering products are rated by their 'chelation value or ratio' ( how stable a compound they form)!
I also think there may be a filtering problem - because there isn't much coming out with the backwash - and the pressure is at 40, when it ususally is aroung 18. Could channeling be the problem?
Possibly, or maybe broken laterals in the filter. I think it's time for a complete filter breakdown and inspection, and sand cleaning or replacement.
You can read Pamsels other posts in the metals forum, and maybe you have some ideas that can help. Thanks!

Hope this clears things up. It's confused the heck out of me!

[Pamsel]

We replaced the sand last summer, so I've not been too concerned that the sand is junked up. But, it's probably worth taking a look. I'll have to have my husband get involved with opening the filter - that's a bit out of my league I think.

I went out tonight about 10:00 pm and could see stuff settled on the bottom, so swept the entire pool again and then added 4 gallons of CL to get it back up to shock level. Am waiting a couple of hours and then going to add more acid again. Then I'm going to bed and will see what it looks like in the morning!!

Edit - I typed the above message before seeing your posts, Marie and Evan. But I guess for now, I'll stay with the plan I posted, since I have already added the CL and it does seem important to get the PH down. I also stopped the aeration for now. My pressure guage is now above 45, but everything sounds normal out there - would there be any difference in the sound of the filter running if there's a real problem? Funny thing is that it was reading normal (18-20) this morning before I left for the day and when I came back this evening, it was over 30 and each time I check it, it's gone higher. Also, normally when I backwash, the pressure drops to 0 but tonight it stayed high, so I'm wondering if it's broken??

[haze_1956]

I see from the threads you are at this for 2 weeks, so I can well imagine your frustration level must be way up there.

Problems are, Pool is still green, PH will not lower and Filter pressure too high.

Pool green, from Algae or Copper ?
Googling found this info – The best way to deal with copper is with a chelating agent, not a sequestering agent. The copper products used, as swimming pool algaecides, are typically in a chelated (stabilized) form.
This leads me to think that the Copper Algaecide should not turn the pool green, but if you think it has, you would want to add a “chelating agent” . From what I read, chelation stablizes the copper and keeps it in solution, stopping the pool being green. But only by replacing the water will the copper actually be removed from the pool

Ph will not lower-
The whole aeration process seems simple. Use Acid to maintain lower PH to 6.8-7.0 and then use aeration to lower Alkalinity.
But I seem to recall reading in the forum that using aeration above 7.0–7.2 will increase PH. I may be mistaken on that, I am sure someone will chime in should that be incorrect. But I am wondering if your aerating is actually keeping the PH high. Perhaps you need to stop aerating for now, and keep adding acid, until PH drops to 7.0

Filter Pressure high–
I think that is for the Pool guys who really know the equipment. But I believe it is low pressure means problem before the pump, and high pressure means problem after pump.

I’m also wondering what you have coming out of the filter when you backwash?

Best of luck, we are all rooting for you !!
.