Nature 2?

[bryjen]

Our pool opened at the end of last july,so we never put our n2 cart in. Being a BBB convert I never will. From an earlier post the n2 container is empty water passes right thru I see no need to remove it.

[medvampire]

When I bought my pool this spring I got “pool stored” in to getting a N2 system and after looking through the paper work knew I got nailed. We have used colloidal silver as a disinfectant for instrumentation in a histology lab. I soon realized that the levels of silver in the N2 system were way to low to kill E.Coli and pseudomonas. We have also used silver in special “live” tissue preps at around the same levels I feel the N2 is delivering. I am not going to trust my family’s health to 0.5 ppm Cl and the N2.
I am not sure if the N2 works by metal delivery or by filtration. The “kill zone” may be in the filter itself and not dependant of metal delivery.
This fall when I pull my N2 cartage out I do intend to do some test by preparing several suspensions of different bacteria, prepping some homemade filters using the N2 contents, pass the suspensions thought the filters, and do colony counts. I wish I could get N2 to send me some of their filter material to test that has not been used and I am not going to waste $100 on a filter to rip apart.
As for EDTA it is a chelating agent against Ca. We use it in hematology to prevent coagulation of whole blood by chelating Ca and replacing it with K+. Ca is a metal.
As for the copper I am not sure about its levels as an algaecide but for it to combine with dihydrogenmonoxide (sorry couldn’t help myself) it would have to create an ionic bond and could possibly would lead copper toxicity. The level of ionized copper should be below 1 ppm in the body with most being bound to protein.
You have to be careful when dealing with these “healthy” mineral claims. It is a case of “When a little is good a lot must be better” mentality that gets peps in trouble. I have seen one case of copper toxicity at work and caused hemolytic anemia, liver degration, and renal problems.
The real question is if these things work? I really think that the best course of action is to listen to people running the board here and follow their advice. The chemistry is sound and their advice is wise.
Thanks again
Steve

[waterbear]

N2 is not a filter, it is an erosion feeder. Their Express unit is attached by clamping onto an existing PVC pipe in your plumbing system so the water can circulate through the cart. and return to the pool. It just doen't put enough of anything into the pool. For copper itselt be be effecive as an algecidie it needs to be at concentrations close to 1 ppm in the water. I regularly test pools with N2 units and they show 0-.2 ppm copper. Not sure how much addtional protection is added by the silver since we don't test for that nor do I know what level it becomes effective. I just know that the kill times are very slow.

As far as EDTA, I finally got an answer back from this particular company from someome who actually knew some chemisty and was told that the reaction EDTA was pH dependant and that at normal pool pH it has a greater chelation ratio for copper and would chelate 16 ppm copper and only 1 ppm calcium so the impact on calcium levels would be minimal. This makes sense since the EDTA titration test for calcium hardness is carried out at a pH of 12 and the test for total hardness at a pH of 10.

[medvampire]

If the N2 is an erosion feeder there is no way it could reach a level to be a effective bacteriostat. The required level is around 30 ppm and is most effective with H2O2. We have used in years past around 25 ppm (if my math is correct we used a %soultion) to stain Cryptosporidium with a kill time of around 120 minutes. Cryptosporidium is harder to kill but after looking around at 30 ppm in drinking systems at around 40 ppm in combo with 50 ppm H2O2 the kill time was around 900 minutes. With WB getting a 0.2 ppm of copper the erosion of silver would be around the same judging by the ionic states of each.
I can see where I will NOT be wasteing my hard earned $$$$ on a new N2 cart for next year. I will invest in one of Ben's kits.
The advice from the mods here is very good and wise. I wish I had found the site before getting "pool stored".
Thanks again for setting me straight waterbear. Had a great time this week end with the kiddies and 10 of their friends, water got a little fuzzy, and threw the bleach to it this morning and WOW it looks great this evening. Let the kids go in at a cl of 5 and didnt freak thinks to this forum.
EDIT
WB The EDTA we use as an anticoag has K2 or K3 added to counteract the copper by ionic excange in a buffered form to a PH of 7.10 to 7.25. Red cell lysis and defromation starts at around 7.0. The normal body ph is 7.35 to 7.45 with outside of 7.1 to 7.6 being incompatable with life. I have seen very few live with a ph below 7.0 or above 7.8 and if they do we have created a veggie.
Steve

[sasha]

If the N2 is an erosion feeder there is no way it could reach a level to be a effective bacteriostat.

I think that's beside the point. The product is to be used with at least 0.5 ppm free chlorine, and that's clearly stated on the label.

IMO, not mentioning the explicit requirement for having a concurrent free chlorine level of at least 0.5 ppm is misrepresenting the product.

[medvampire]

I guess I jumped into a hornets nest on this N2 subject. One last post and I bind and gag my fingers.
First of all let me say I am not worried about the copper due to the fact if you have an algae bloom I feel you have bigger problems with bacteria or viruses in your pool. Algae is a good sign you have problems.

Warning geek speak to follow.

Cl is a great sanitizer at levels given in Ben’s best guess chart but at levels of 0.5 it is quickly used up. It attacks by oxidizing the lipid molecules of the cell membrane as well as the membrane of bacteria, algae, parasites while denaturing the proteins in the coats of viruses.
Silver is a great sanitizer in conjunction with UV light and works buy preventing the unzipping of DNA. This prevents the replication of bacteria and viruses. In high concretions it also hinders the production of proteins but would be toxic to us at that level.
Now let’s put the two chem. together
Ag electrical state +1.93
Cl electrical state -3.16
Ag + Cl -à AgCl
In theory have just created a white insoluble granular material that is way to large to enter a cell to mess with the DNA and killed the oxidizing propties Cl but in a pool environment Ag in solution will be found in its bound and unbound state.
Ag + Cal ßà AgCl
Now mix the rest of the pool chem. Ca Na Mg Fe just to mention a few.
Ca electrical state 1
Fe electrical state -1.83
Na electrical state -0.93
Mg electrical state -1.31
You get the ideal. Ag is a very reactive with other elements causing a greater decrease of free silver in the system.
Now lets gander to silver kill times if we have enough free silver left in the system. Kill times are directionally proportionalto concretion of free silver and judging by the level of silver left in the system you are looking at well over ½ hour kill times. E.Cloi reproduces every 20 minutes so resistant strains become a good possibility. Resistant strains for silver that have been cultured include
Acinetobacter baumannii, E. coli, Enterobacter cloacae, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Pseudomonas stutzeri, Citrobacter freundii, and Salmonella typhimurium
Trust me you do not want to get any of these bacteria much less a resistant one.

End of geek speak.

I am out of this one and might get my hand slapped by the mods for this but the N2 is not only expensive but potently dangerous due to bacteria resistance and will be pulling my cartridge and use just the puck feeder on the vessel when on vacation.
I deal with enough resistant bacteria and have seen the effects of MRSA here at work in the staff as well as the patents.
Later
Steve

[sasha]

Odd that you say silver is a "great" sanitizer with UV light but discount its effectiveness with low levels of free chlorine. I think your only negative point is that such a low level of free chlorine would be rapidly depleted.

Silver, because of its lower reactivity, would not be depleted as free chlorine would. Silver would be persistently available unlike the free chlorine that is so reactive it gets used up. That might be just enough to get you through until more free chlorine comes on line providing those fast kill rates needed. In this sense, silver would be supplementing the disinfection properties of chlorine.

There's no measurement I'm aware of that would describe silver complexed in solution either as a AgCl precipitate, complex, or colloid that would totally discount its possible effectiveness. And of those other elements you list besides chloride, there's little reason to think those would be principle players in silver equilibria. I'd be more concerned about low levels of sulfide in the water reducing silver concentrations than a possible redox reaction between silver and some other trace metal ion. The solubility product constant of silver sulfide is several orders of magnitude lower than silver chloride.

Plus, who's to say the possible action of silver isn't simply suppression of formation of biofilms on surfaces that silver species have deposited on? Perhaps the formation and presence of these biofilms has more to do with the dynamics of bacterial counts in the water than has been traditionally assumed. There's a number of surface active silver products on the market.

I believe we tend to think in a simplistic model of disinfection where there needs to be a specific residual concentration of an agent to attain a specific kill rate for specific organisms. This is appropriate, but in the Nature 2 system, you should always have at least 0.5 ppm free chlorine anyways. This, for the most part, provides a sufficient kill rate and arguing about the slow kill rates of silver alone is a moot point. And when you point out that these other elemental species "decrease silver in the system", you're referring to a residual concentration that may be only part of silver's disinfection action.

I think silver is always in the system, in one form or another, whether in solution or on surfaces, and I would be hesitent to assume I understood the efficacy of all those forms without any data. I think there's some benefit, regardless of the mechanism, but at what cost?

The principle issue becomes one of cost and value to the customer, and as such, Nature 2 is a very poor choice for consumers. Of the active agents Nature 2 apparently provides (silver and copper sulfate), the amounts are worth a very small fraction of the product cost of almost $100. That's enough to convince me to never buy the product.

But whether it's Nature 2 or other products such as simplyblue etc., your gripe shouldn't be with the companies or salesmen trying to make a living. It should be with your Federal and state agencies who have a responsibility in protecting consumers from ineffective products related to public health. Writing a few letters to positioned people in those agencies would be a more valuable and effective exercise than banning people from forums such as this who promote those products.

[CarlD]

Steve:
Some comments---
First: Chorine levels of .5 can be effective at keeping a clean pool clean, but nobody will claim it will clean up a dirty pool. (except maybe N2)

Second: .5 is ONLY effective with no CYA in the water. The Best Guess table is an empirical table showing effective maintenance and shock levels of chlorine for various CYA levels. So it's really irrelevant in the real world to discuss .5 chlorine levels. Most people who follow pool store rules are d*** lucky not to get algae when using pucks and keeping FC that low. Actually, many of them get algae, and finally come here for help. I'm inferring that your point is that N2 is leading people down the garden path to serious water troubles. I agree with that.

Third: I know that silver can be an algaecide, but that doesn't make it a sanitizer. There's a difference. I'm guessing that at levels where it can actually sanitize (kill microbes) is definitely not safe for human swimming.

Fourth: I, too, argue that simple arithmetic tells you that the N2 isn't worth the money. Now the seasonal cartridge is over $100. That buys a HECKUVA lot of chlorine--and you need to buy chlorine with the N2 anyway. I'd bet $100 that 999 out of a 1000 pool owners don't save that $100 in reduced chlorine usage.

Fifth: N2 uses that bromine and bacquacil producers' myth that chlorine is irritating and lots of people are sensitive to it. We know that's not true--properly maintained water doesn't irritate most people, and the few it does have explicit medical issues.