My Pool Looks Like An EASTER EGG!!! -- NOT a good thing!

[waterbear]

My question is when you put in the Black Algaetrine? According to the MSDS on it it contains copper carbonate (I believe it's 3% copper) and some organic ammonia compound (MONOETHANOLAMINE, TRIETHANOLAMINE) which form choramines(that's combined chlorine!) when put into your pool,and DIMETHYL BENZYL AMMONIUM CHLORIDE which is a quat (NOT polyquat!) . The choramines are eaten by the algae and decolorize them. The quat and the copper both are algaecides. This can create a very big chlorine demand. Have you tested your water for copper and iron? The black in your pool might not have been algae at all but a copper stain. In a highly oxidized state copper will create black stains! This is a complex situation but it can be fixed. IMHO, the first step is to see if there are metals in your water and to test the stain to see if it is a metal stain. There are stain tests kits available or you can determine what the stain is with the help of some of the more experienced people on here! First thing is to determine if it is really a stain and what kind or an algae problem . The treatments are different depending on what the results are.
Don't loss faith. You will be swimming soon!

[mbar]

I would follow what Dave said. I think you are dealing with algae, because if you can rub the stain off with a brush, then it isn't a metal stain. I would go ahead and put the metal free in before you add the chlorine, it will bind with any metal that may be in solution, and then I would put a chlorine puck in your skimmer so that if there is staining, it will stain the filter first. You must have your ph down to 7.0, 7.2 for the chlorine to work the best, and the more acidic the pool, the less chance of it staining with high chlorine. I would keep the chlorine at shock levels for at least a week, and especially until the water is holding the chlorine with no combined chlorine. Don't add any cya if you have it at 65, that is high enough. Have some patience - the water won't clear over night, but you will be able to see improvement day to day. Don't worry about the stain coming back - if it does, you will be able to treat it, but for now you have to make sure there is no algae in your pool. You can swim with stains, but you can't swim with algae!!. Put metal free in, bring down your ph, and add lots of bleach - put a puck in the skimmer. keep the filter running 24/7. Keep us posted & best of luck.

[waterbear]

I would follow what Dave said. I think you are dealing with algae, because if you can rub the stain off with a brush, then it isn't a metal stain. I would go ahead and put the metal free in before you add the chlorine, it will bind with any metal that may be in solution, and then I would put a chlorine puck in your skimmer so that if there is staining, it will stain the filter first. You must have your ph down to 7.0, 7.2 for the chlorine to work the best, and the more acidic the pool, the less chance of it staining with high chlorine. I would keep the chlorine at shock levels for at least a week, and especially until the water is holding the chlorine with no combined chlorine. Don't add any cya if you have it at 65, that is high enough. Have some patience - the water won't clear over night, but you will be able to see improvement day to day. Don't worry about the stain coming back - if it does, you will be able to treat it, but for now you have to make sure there is no algae in your pool. You can swim with stains, but you can't swim with algae!!. Put metal free in, bring down your ph, and add lots of bleach - put a puck in the skimmer. keep the filter running 24/7. Keep us posted & best of luck.

Chlorine puck in the skimmer is NOt a good idea with a cartridge filter. The very low pH of trichlor can actually ruin the cartridge (happened to me when my pool was being built. Before they got the SWG working they were puting trichlor pucks in the skimmer and it started to dissolve the rubber (or plastic) ends on the cartridge and put goo from it all inside the filter and into my pool! My builder actually fired one of his guys who did this and ended up having to replace my entire filter which was only about 2 months old at the time)

[PopcornGirl]

Wow, I appreciate you guys so much! Thanks for all your help...

Ok, sorry about the typo last night (too tired after an exhausting day); yes, my CYA is 65.
***Aside: The Black Algaetrine was added about 3 weeks ago, two days after the initial vacuum & shock...
I'm *pretty sure* that it is black algae (black freckles and streaks in localized areas).
By the way, the black algae (or whatever it is) is STILL THERE. So, maybe you're right; maybe it's not...***

I will definitely do what you say... add muriatic acid (wait 3 hours), then add the bleach, but I'll wait until around 3 or 4 this afternoon when the sun is no longer on that side of my house so that I don't end up converting all of my chlorine!
I am confused now about whether or not to put the puck in the skimmer... it is definitely a tri-chlor puck and I certainly don't want what Waterbear suggests to happen! Interestingly, Waterbear, it was my pool store owner who first suggested putting a puck in my skimmer -- had me do that last week. Thank goodness, that's the ONLY ONE I've put in there so far!

Also, I have TWO bottles of Metal Out; should I just add the one?
And according to the REGAL manufacturer's instructions:

It is advisable to add this product at least one day prior to adding algaecide or chlorine.

So should I add the Metal Out NOW and do the acid/bleach TOMORROW???
Or if I do the Metal Out now, 9:15 am CDT on Monday, can I still do the acid/bleach tonight (say, around 7pm & 10pm, respectively?). Would that be enough of a window between the two?
I realize that y'all are having to do a lot of "hand-holding" with me, and I apologize, but I'm a fast learner and I want to learn, so don't give up on me!
Thanks again,

[PopcornGirl]

Oh, one more thing: Does the pH need to come down BEFORE I add the Metal Out or can I do that NOW -- green pool and all???

[mbar]

I'm sorry I don't know anything about cartridge filters, I have a sand filter so I can't say about the puck in the skimmer, but I would listen to Waterbear on that. The reason it says not to add the chlorine till after the metal out is to allow time for the metal out to adhere to the metal in the water, so that it can be filtered out before the chlorine makes it come out of solution and fall onto the pool surface. So a couple of hours is enough. With a cya of 65, your chlorine should hold fine in the sun - you don't want your cya any higher. You can add chlorine after a few hours. I would keep your chlorine high at all times now to get rid of any algae - whenever you check your chlorine make sure to take it back to shock levels. Your chlorine will start to hold when the algae, or even metals in solution are gone. Metals that are in solution use up chlorine too, that's why it is important to keep your chlorine levels up for now. MAKE SUR YOU KEEP YOUR FILTER RUNNING 24/7. I still think that you have algae since the stain was able to be rubbed off. If it is a mineral stain, no amount of rubbing will get it off, but ascorbic acid (vitamin c) will take it right off when you put it right on the stain (even if your ph is high). Keep us informed, we all learn from each other, that is what is so great about this forum. I just saw the post about the ph - you can add the metal out, and the muriatic acid too. Make sure you add acid, wait a while then test again for ph - it takes a little while to get a true reading, and you don't want to go too low.

[duraleigh]

Hi, Summer,

You're on your way!! I'll bow out for now so you can get clear, simple advice from Marie (with nothing extraneous to just confuse you)....she's the metals guru!! (guruess?

Keep your Cl up to 20ppm every chance you get....I'll read your posts but Marie's the expert!!

Your willingness to learn shines thru in all your posts....you're gonna' love the bleach thing once you get your water clear.

Dave S.

[waterbear]

. The reason it says not to add the chlorine till after the metal out is to allow time for the metal out to adhere to the metal in the water, so that it can be filtered out before the chlorine makes it come out of solution and fall onto the pool surface.

Chemisty 101 here--sorry
Metal removers react with the metals and keep them in solution. The filter does NOT filter them out. Sometimes, if you are lucky, you can get the metal to precipitate out and stain your filter medium instead of your pool but there is no sure fire way of doing this. The seqestering agents just keep the metal in solution and in a form that it will not likely "fall out" of solution and form stains nor react with strong oxidizers (chlorine) and produce colored water. There is no easy way to remove the metal from the water short of draining and refilling with pure water. You CAN remove the stain by dissolving it back into the water and then help deactivate it's reactivity with the chlorine by sequestering it.
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) oxalic acid, HCl (muriatic acid) all act as reducing agents on the metal stains which are usually in a higher oxidation state and convert them to a lower oxidation state which is water soluable. A seqestering agent will then react with the metal ion and help keep it from going back to that more oxidized state as quickly but the metal is STILL in the water.

Popcorngirl,
The fact that you had a copper ionizer and then coverted to chlorine and had some localized black spotting and streaks makes me very suspect that those might have been copper stains. The pool store told you the problem was copper, did they test for it?
Even if you did a complete water change there still might have been enough copper in the system to redisolve and then restain with a high oxidizer level of shocking.
You also seemed to have a secondary iron stain problem although it could also have been tannin stains from leaves. Once again testing would determine which.
The third problem is the algae (I assume it was green water....once again copper in the water can cause it to turn green...only testing for copper will tell you which it is)
You then added more copper with the Black Algaetrine along with a bunch of ammonia compounds (and some quats) which would eat up all your free chlorine and make an incredable chlorine demand in your pool. They would also decolor any algae in your pool as the algae ate the chloramines (nitrogen compounds are favorite algae food!)

At this point I sort of lost track of what is going on and am confused.
I am sure that if you did not have algae before you might now but I doubt it since you dosed the pool with copper and quats. You then put in metal out which effectively deactivated the copper as an algacide and I have NO IDEA what the hydrogen peroxide might have done but I assume it would have a similar action as monopersulfate and possibly oxidize some of the metal that the metal out had bound up and caused it to either color the water or stain again.

I have to admit that at this point I am lost but definately do NOT put a puck in your skimmer with a cartridge filter!

One final thing, you stated that when you brushed the brown stain with a metal brush it sent out clouds of brown stuff in the water. Could be mustard algae (more tan than brown) could be rust (iron oxide) that is coming loose because of the stain treatments and all the other stuff you put in the water or that didn't really stain but just precipitated out of the water, could be something else. If you can brush it and vacumn it to your filter and then clean the filter I would do that and get as much out of the water that you can, whatever it is!

One more final final thing,
You said that you are using HTH super shock (which is cal hypo). I noticed you wondered or were suprised as to why you CH was 360ppm, this could be a reason) and pucks. Are the pucks HTH and are they by any chance the 'dual action' ones? If they are they contain --guess what--COPPER!

[mbar]

Thank you Waterbear for your chemistry lesson!!! I was under the impression that you could filter out the metals once they were binded on the sequestering agent - That's what I was told, and why I had to keep the pump running. But maybe it was so that it would stain the filter instead of the pool? I have successfully kept the stains away after using the treatmet without draining the water from the pool. I am still trying to figure out where metals get in my pool, and why sometimes I get staining and other times I don't., and it seems that I am not alone in this! I can get the stains off, but can't figure out how to prevent them yet. Is the solution to always keep enough sequestering agent in the pool, and keep the filter running 24/7? What do you think???