Electrical wiring concern with my PB

[skamp]

I suggest just paying it.
I really don't see the electrician coming down on his price, and I don't see the contractor making a concession out of his contract. He never made an allowance for it on his spread. The price the electrician is asking is the fair market value of the upgrade to 100 amps regardless of how much the additional materials cost.
If he proceeds with his multiple breakers installation it's going to take 5 slots in your existing breaker box. It'll be 2 double throw 30's and a single throw 15 for the pool lamps.
Another option would be to ask the builder if you purchased the materials would the electrician install it on your behalf, all he'd be out is the same labor it would of taken to begin with.

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly,
As always I appreciate your response. I really don't want to suck it up but it looks like I may have to do that. I will propose buying the supplies and see what they say. Thanks!

Steve

[Poolidiot]

Steve,
I will throw my 2 cents in on this. First of all $300.00 is not out of line. Second, you need to determine what your panel is pulling now without the pool equipment on it. You say you have a 200 amp service correct? Well if you are pulling , lets say 150 amps now without your pool equipment then you do not have enough amperage to add a sub panel of 100 amps. But lets say you are only pulling 100 amps now then you do have enough amperage to add a 100 amp subpanel BUT you will not have enough left to add anything (like tools or welders) in the future from your panel. If you go over 200 amps then you run the risk of over loading your service. Your 4/0 wire is just at the 200 amp range so if you add more amperage then you run the risk of your service wire over heating and then you could run into a dangerous situation. If you will have over 200 amps total you will need to run the service from your meter to your controller panel and not from your existing panel. But to do this you need to make sure your meter is rated for more then 200 amps. Not sure if I wrote this to where you can understand what I am saying or if all I did was confuse you more.

[pinkivory_99]

I would push the issue. The reason you are installing the East Touch 8 is so you can control the equipment and acessories that you add in the future from this panel, plus if you have to work on pool equipment etc you can shut off the 100 amp breaker and not affect your household items.
Setting it up with a 100 amp service would be the best way to do it and it should not cost 300.00. Wire size should be #2 enclosed in 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" grey pvc pipe and #2 wire is not that hard to work with. If it is a straight run from your box to the Easy touch it should be a piece of cake. Tell the pool builder that you will take care of it youself, sounds like you would be capable of doing this since you upgraded you main panel. The electrician could run the pool equipment etc. wiring out of the easy touch. Maybe the PB and electrician do not know how the Easy Touch works????? and this is why they do not want to use it.
I don't think you will ever overload the 200 amp service, I run shop tools, 2 electric, kilns pool equipment and household loads and never have had a problem, you have to realize all of the electrical items in your house are not running at the same time.
Stand your ground and get it the way you want it. You have to live with it the PB and electrician do not. Just my 2 cents.....

[Poolidiot]

"I don't think you will ever overload the 200 amp service, I run shop tools, 2 electric, kilns pool equipment and household loads and never have had a problem, you have to realize all of the electrical items in your house are not running at the same time."

Pinkivory,
Although you are probably right,it is better to check then just assume and then find out you are screwed.

[huskyrider]

Tell the pool builder that you will take care of it youself.

I disagree with this completely. You'll have no warranty for your first year from the electrician.

it should not cost 300.00.

I'm curious, please tell me what you think it should cost.


I do agree that it should be a 2awg in a 1 1/2" conduit.

I also agree that energizing the 100 amp power center is really no big deal.
If, by chance, you were amp'd out on your load you'd trip the 200 main disconnect breaker and lose all power everywhere until it was reset. 200 amps is a bunch and unless you had a heat pump on the pool running at the same time as an electric home heater, electric oven, and an electric clothes dryer, plus your usual lights and televisions etc.. I seriously doubt that you'd trip it.

I really think the best bet is to ask the builder if you can purchase the materials and have his sub install them.

See ya,
Kelly

[Poolidiot]

I disagree with this completely. You'll have no warranty for your first year from the electrician.


I'm curious, please tell me what you think it should cost.


I do agree that it should be a 2awg in a 1 1/2" conduit.

I also agree that energizing the 100 amp power center is really no big deal.
If, by chance, you were amp'd out on your load you'd trip the 200 main disconnect breaker and lose all power everywhere until it was reset. 200 amps is a bunch and unless you had a heat pump on the pool running at the same time as an electric home heater, electric oven, and an electric clothes dryer, plus your usual lights and televisions etc..

See ya,
Kelly

Kelly what you say may be true 99% of the time BUT that 1% of the time do you want to take the risk of the breaker NOT tripping and your wire over heating and possibly starting a fire? I wouldnt take that risk.My thinking is always do the job right, not the cheapest or easier way.

And if someone tells him to do it his self then that is not a smart thing to tell him. Around here we have city codes, where you have to get permits and you have to be a licensed electrician , true a home owner can take a test and then do their own electrical work but being on a pool i would highly discourage a home owner from doing this.

I would also be interested in hearing what the original poster and others think a fair price would be.

[huskyrider]

quote" And if someone tells him to do it his self then that is not a smart thing to tell him "quote

Yes sir, with this I agree 100percent.

Not because he's not capable, rather because any little nit pick item that may come up electrically oriented within the first year will not be covered.
It's obvious to me that if the buyer changed out his existing meter can and power center for the home that he's more than capable of energizing the new power center for the digital controller off of a new double throw breaker.
I know the owner of his pool company is a good man, and as long as he doesn't add any incurred costs to his spread he'll oblige the homeowners requests. The question is will the subcontractor that the work is assigned to oblige him too.

One of the biggest reasons, aside from the additional profitability and scheduling on my timeline, that I keep the bulk of our work inhouse is situations just like this. Subs are accustomed to getting their way because 99 out of 100 pool builders are only capable of the most important job descriptions of all, the selling of the work and the cutting of the checks. I can assure you of this, the builder needs the sub more than the sub needs the builder.

See ya,
Kelly

[skamp]

Here is my take on it. The electrical sub already has to do the following to bring electric to the panel.

1. Cut a hole in the brick to bring service from main panel to the outside.
2. Run conduit through the brick and out to the EasyTouch panel 5 feet away
3. Run two 30 AMP and a 15 AMP run through conduit. I also forgot to mention they are running a 15 AMP circuit to my outdoor kitchen and I have another sub for my patio cover that needs to run a 15 AMP circuit. I assume this would require 2 x 10/3 cables (220 service for pumps, etc, 1 x 14/2 (pool lights), 1 x 14/3 (dedicated run for outdoor kitchen) and a #6 ground (must run seperate ground as you cannot bond ground to the neutral in a sub panel).

If they install it as a sub panel he still has to do all the steps above the only difference is the hole in the brick will need to be slightly larger to accomodate the larger conduit, the wires which would now be 3 x #2 and a #6 ground (the retail cost of these wires for a 5 foot run is less then $20.00. There would also be an additional 100 AMP breaker that costs $33.00 at Home Depot. I would be more then happy to buy the wire, breaker and conduit.

For the above change, the charge I would consider fair is $100-150. That would be about $50-60 in parts and $50-100 in extra labor which to be honest is no more work. Maybe 10 minutes more for a pro.

I have thought about adding a 100 AMP sub panel to the outside of my house for the electrical sub to use but that is an extra $30.00 out of my pocket for the panel.

As far as overloading the service, a sub panel or multiple sub panels are not a problem. You can basically have an unlimited number of breakers regardless of the service. The key thing is you cannot draw more power then you have. In my case I would not run the pool equiptment if I was welding but having an additional 50 or 100 AMP breaker in the panel that not being used is no risk. My original server was 125 AMP's I doubt I was every using more then 90. I have a gas range so that is 40 AMP's right there that is connected in the panel but not used. I upgraded to 200 AMP's to have a ton of headroom so the wire would not heat up from being close to max load.

I will have a conversation with my PB today. I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

Steve