Cloudy Water After Alum

[At wits end]

This is a very long story or chain of events - i have a 18k gallon, inground. liner pool, Goldline Aqua Cell salt generator, haward 1.5 hp pump, 300lb sand filter. I run the filter all year long so never have 'Opening" issues. This year i didn't switch from night filtering to day filtering soon enough, and became very slighlty tinged with algae. I switched over to day filtering and instead of pouring regular algeacide in the pool, inadvertently dumped a whole bottle of copper algeacide in, which of course caused formerly non-existent metal levels to sky rocket. The battle began trying to clean out the metal. After 15 bottles of a metal free product i figured out it wasn't going to do the trick. On the advice of a pool store, I dumped 20 lbs of Alum into the pool and haven't been able to see the 3rd step since. The alum didn't drop after 4 days and i was instructed to raise the PH levels to at least 7.8, turn off the filter and give it 4 more days to drop. I had to be at 0 chlorine to use the Alum so the salt system was turned off. The alum never dropped, but i have vaccummed to waste, lowered the pool water to 6 inches below the skimmer line and refilled. I can't see to the bottom of the skimmer basket it's so cloudy - a milky blue. I have added fiber clear to the sand filter (thru the skimmer basket) and for the first 2 days have had to back wash within four hours after adding it. After one full bag and 6 days of adding it, the pressure is no longer rising. I've replaced the sand in the sand filter after vacuuming out what i could of the alum. I've been working on water balancing for the last 2 days and my current readings are:
FC - 1
TC - 1
PH - 7.6
TA - 120
CYA - 5-10 (have a nylon filled with CYA hanging in front of my return as i type)
Hardness - 110
TDS - 3300
Salt - 2400 - The Aqua Cell reads 2700 and says it's generating
Phosphates - 0

After reading your forum sent my husband to the store for 6 gallons of 6% bleach.

I had a bad test kit that was reading my chlorine levels at over 3 - the above are pool store results from today. Also of note is I can smell chlorine. With the salt system, i've never smelled chlorine, so I dropped the Chlorine generator to 30. It typically runs on 50.

How can i fix this horrible mess that's been created? Is it possible an agae bloom is creating this non-see-thru water - considering no chlorine was added to the pool for 2 full weeks at temperatures of 70-83 degrees. Will bleach help? Please help me. Thanks so much for taking the time to read this - i know it was a long one.

[PoolDoc]

OK. That's a mess. Do this:

1. Tell me the EXACT product name on the 15 bottles of stuff you put in the pool.
2. Tell me the EXACT product you are calling alum -- I'm assuming you didn't buy a 100# bag of industrial aluminum sulfate. (Actual industrial alum is usually a coarse tan granular material.)
3. Tell me what COLOR the water is.
4. Start ignoring your pool store -- anybody that let you put 15 bottles of metal remover in a small pool is without a clue!
5. Turn your pump on, and leave it on. AND, turn your SWCG OFF and leave it off.
6. Get a cheap OTO chlorine test kit, use it, and tell me what you see.
7. As soon as you get a chance, open the filter, and make sure it's FULL of sand.
8. Order a K2006 ASAP; you can use the Amazon link in my signature if you like.
9. Use the bleach to keep your chlorine in the 3 - 5 ppm range. Dose in the evening.
10. Buy a 25# bag of DE powder. Add two cups -- only -- of DE to the skimmer. Then, go watch the returns, to see if the DE comes back into the pool, as a white stream (I hope your pool is clear enough for that). If it DOES come back, you'll need to repair your filter. If not, begin adding 2 - 4 cups of DE to your skimmer after each backwash. You'll lose the DE . . . and some of the gunk . . . each time your backwash.
11. Plan on this taking awhile (2 weeks?) to clear. If you get impatient, it's likely to get worse, so don't. (Our stock of quart bottles of P.O.P.* is out, so you'll need to fill your own!)
12. Send us the K2006 results, once you have them.
13. For now, do NOT put ANYTHING else in that pool, except bleach!
14. Draining and refilling would be faster, but do NOT do this on your own -- you can destroy your liner, or even your pool. If you want to do this, hire a pool company to do it for you.


* P.O.P. = Pool Owner Patience!

[BigDave]

One thing you mentioned was Fiber Clear. This is not (despite what the pool store may have told you) the same as DE. I bought Fiber Clear last year to improve my sand filtration, I saw no improvement. I did see big clumps of what looked like wet newspaper on my sand when I opened the sand filter to winterize it. I don't kinow if Fiber Clear really works as a DE replacement in a DE filter but (in my experience) it does not work the same way in a sand filter - it appears to attract itself and just forms big clumps.

When PoolDoc says to use DE, use DE not Fiber Clear.

[kelemvor]

One thing you mentioned was Fiber Clear. This is not (despite what the pool store may have told you) the same as DE. I bought Fiber Clear last year to improve my sand filtration, I saw no improvement. I did see big clumps of what looked like wet newspaper on my sand when I opened the sand filter to winterize it. I don't kinow if Fiber Clear really works as a DE replacement in a DE filter but (in my experience) it does not work the same way in a sand filter - it appears to attract itself and just forms big clumps.

When PoolDoc says to use DE, use DE not Fiber Clear.

The fiberclear faq says this:
When I disassemble my filter to clean it, there is a gray gelatinous material that is difficult to remove. Why does this happen and how do I remove it from the filter?
This is usually the result of a non-compatible chemicals (clarifiers, phosphate removers, etc.) being added to the water. Fiber Clear is merely filtering those chemicals out of the water. Clarifiers, phosphate removers some types of algaecides or other types of sequestering agents should not be added to a Fiber Clear filter. If you inadvertently add them, you will need to disassemble the filter and clean it thoroughly according to the manufacturer's instructions. You can then add a fresh amount of Fiber Clear.

Not that I'm suggesting the stuff or anything...

[BigDave]

None of the @#$%$ has ever been in my pool. Fiber Clear is the weirdest thing this pool has seen. It may be fine as a DE replacement in a DE filter I don't know. In my experience it didn't help in a sand filter and left me with chunks of newspaper delivered in a thunderstorm and run over by the car. Perhaps it is incompatible with the DHMO that I use in excess.

Sorry, wits, for the Hijack. Follow PoolDoc's advice. He will help you. POP is the one thing you can't overuse.

[At wits end]

Everyone, thank you so much for your responses! Ben, answers to your questions are below:
1 - MetalFree
2 - Alum - Leslie's Pool Store Brand
3 - A solid baby blue
4 - I'm completely DONE with the pool store and their advice!
5 - The Filter has been running non stop for a week - i'll continue to let it run. I added 2 bottles of bleach last night after i posted this and this morning turned the SWCG to super-cholorinate - i'll turn it off when i get home tonight. Would you mind telling me why i need to turn off the SWCG, please? I have to know why so i can apply the knowledge in the future - I'm just special like that.
6 - OTO? Not sure what that is, but i did just replace the cheap one i had with Leslie's kit - made by Taylor
7 - I just emptied and replaced the sand in my sand filter with 300 lbs of sand the weekend of 3/24/12
8 - Ordering the k2006 once i finish this post
9 - OK
10 - i'll find the DE powder and do as instructed, BUT i can't see the returns, so i won't be able to tell if it's coming back out

I'm over $1,000 into this between MetalFree, Metal Remover, Alum and water. I failed to mention in the first post that the pool no longer has metal (but at this point how could it as i've pretty much emptied and refilled the thing so many times). I'll let you know the results of the chlorine from my cheap kit tonight. I'm assuming your thinking this is definitely the Alum and not algea, yes? Definitely makes sense, but it would have been so nice for it just to be algae. At this point, i'm definitely not opposed to emptying it, or having somebody else do it as by the time I backwash and refill to get rid of this stuff, I'm sure it'll cost me about the same. What's involved in emptying and refilling? I've always been told not to do it, i just don't know why or how it can damage it. Which route would you take? AND, how do I get this fiberclear out of my sand filter? Thanks again for your time!

[Watermom]

Wit, I'm just gonna answer a couple of those questions and let Ben get the rest.

5 -- We don't suggest using a SWCG for super-chlorinating. Save the cell life and just use bleach for now.

6 -- OTO/Phenol Red kit is the cheap one you can pick up most anyplace that uses the red and yellow drops.

[PoolDoc]

I'm over $1,000 into this between MetalFree, Metal Remover, Alum and water.

Wow! That's one of the worst cases of being 'pool-stored' I've heard of. I'm sorry!

OK. There's no easy way out of this. The "baby blue" means alum, not algae. You might still have some algae in the cracks and crannies, but not in the water.

So. Do this:

1. Call around, and get a price to drain and refill your pool, and open your filter and remove the Fiber Clear and top 2" of sand. The filter work will probably need to be done regardless. (If you did the sand yourself, you can get the Fiber Clear out yourself, too.)

2. Tell me what "Metal Remover" is -- what company, and the EXACT brand name. If it's HEDP based, and you've added much . . . you'll probably need to drain.

3. For now, maintain an adequate chlorine level using bleach and OTO -- if the OTO turns dark yellow, you're good to go.

4. Was the sand you put in the filter labeled as "filter sand"?

5. I talked with customer support at Natural Chemistry. Their "Metal Free" is just citric acid, so if there's chlorine in the pool, there's no citric acid left, since chlorine rapidly destroys citric acid.

6. The next step depends on the cost of draining and refilling; how long you're willing to wait for a clear pool, and whether you've added a lot of HEDP. If you haven't added HEDP (if "Metal Remover" isn't HEPD), or have added only a little . . . you can eventually clear the water up. But, if you've added a major overdose of HEDP . . . you'll need to drain and refill.

7. The reason you have to have a professional drain and refill for you, is that the liner is stretched into place using a vacuum (like a super shop-vac), and then held in place by the water. If you take the water out, the liner will contract, but because it's old, will tear when you try to refill. Also, if there's water in the ground -- it can accumulate under the liner, and cause problems. If you are on hillside, this won't be an issue, but if you are on level ground, it will be. You're only about 100 miles south of me, and the ground is too wet here to allow safe draining of a liner pool in a low flat area.

Sorry for all the problems.

[At wits end]

Watermom, thank you!

Ben, thank you! And I'm sorry I've created this monster and then listened to the pool store! It got to the point where everything they said was against my better judgement, but I didn't know what else to do. Thank God I found The Pool Forum! You've helped me feel more hopeful, but know I still have a long road ahead of me.

OK, so i just got back from looking at the actual products I put in the pool. Also pulled the MSDS's on them.

1 - I talked to a pool contractor and they said they would not be responsible for draining and refilling the pool, but recommended it as well. They said if I drained it to 1" above the bottom step leaving at least a foot of water in the shallow end I should be OK. My pool is the "copenhagen" shape and is roughly 5 1/2 feet in the middle and 3 feet on each side - steps on both sides as well. It was put in July 2006. What are your thoughts on this? And do you think DE would be able to help filter what's left in the remaining one foot after I refill it? Worth a shot? Keep calling around?

2 - The "metal remover" I referred to is actually called Stain Remover, distributed by Leslie's Poolmart and it contains Ascorbic Acid - 99.1% and Inert Salts 0.9%.

4 - The Sand is #20 Silica Sand manufactured by Southern Filter Media, LLC. It too was purchased from Leslie's.

6 - I'm under the impression the HEPD was the telling factor on definitely drain the pool. I'm assuming Ascorbic Acid and HEPD are two totally different things and the AA may be easier to work with?????

I checked on DE at Leslie's while I was there. They have a 25lb bag for $25.99 (I didn't buy anything!) Manufacturer's Name is EaglePicher Filtration & Minerals, Inc., Chemical Name Diatomaceous Earth, Flux-Calcined, Trade Name Celatom. It's 100% DE and 35-50% Crystalline Silica.

Waiting to hear back from you before I do anything with the DE or the draining.

Thanks!

[PoolDoc]

You're right -- since the Metal Remover is ascorbic acid (vitamin C!), we don't have to worry about HEDP. (And, since you have chlorine, it's all gone, too.)

Your contractor knows your pool. Ask him again, and confirm that it's safe to drain as far as he said, and then do that -- NO FURTHER!

Since the mess is just alum, that will eventually filter out. Draining it partially should reduce the problem to a more manageable level. I'll call someone, and see if anything will speed that up.

Do go ahead and remove & replace the two 2" of your sand, which should also remove the Fiber Clear. And do remember you MUST keep your chlorine levels up during this entire process or you WILL have algae again!