White splotches, spots, and lines (stains/fading?) in 3 year old fiberglass pool

[aylad]

I deleted your other, duplicate post. When new posters put posts up, they go into a queue to wait for a moderator to approve them before they show up on the forum. It's one of the steps in place to keep hackers/spammers out of the forum. One of us is almost always on the forum, so usually you don't have to wait long to see your post show up, but I guess we were all off at the same time last night!

[PoolDoc]

Hi Viking;

I don't know the answer to your question, but I have some ideas. However, I'm going to ask Waterbear, who's worked with FG pools, to see if he has any ideas -- you may have to wait for his reply; he's sorta on vacation this week.

Meanwhile, please
(a) send me those pictures -- [email protected],
(b) get some Vitamin C tabs, and put some on some areas that are NOT white, and see if they lighten up.
(c) also, sit a small pile of them on WHITE faded area, and see if they have any effect over a 24 hour period.

[viking]

Thanks for the reply. This morning I tried scrubbing a white splotch, after much effort, it lightened just a tad but is still there. It's as though it's part of the pool surface, like a rust stain would feel. It is completely smooth. I applied a descaler to it and scrubbed. I also applied 50/50 concentrations of m acid....no change! I am so disouraged.

I have a correction to make....my pool is ONLY 2 years old, not 3. Also, if it helps, I live in South Louisiana.

How do you suggest I apply the Vitamin C tabs? (I lowered the water level in the spa to expose/dry some of the staining.)

Thanks! This is consuming my time.

==========================================

I emailed some pics to you. Also, I just dropped a few C tabs in affected and non-affected area in the spa, which will be easier for me to monitor.

Thanks bunches!

[viking]

Hi there, here is an update:

After 24+ hours, there was no change on both affected and non-affected areas where the vitamin C tabs were placed.

We did hear back from the manufacturer. They claim that it IS scale, even though it is smooth. They said one of their display pools did the same thing, and they had to buff it down (after little success with chemical treatment). Our question to him was.... How could that happen? Did you not maintain proper water balance? (How odd for the manufacturer's pool to have problems; they are the pros.) He said the guy in charge of that claims he did maintain proper water. (I just wonder....if our water chemistry has been fairly good/normal, how can this happen so easily? I question the quality control of our pool surface?? I mean, it will likely happen again if we never had water problems. What do you think??? ....I'm ranting)

We will try to use a power buffer/sander as per the manufacturer's recommendation with the spa and see what happens. (I hope we are not sanding off the gel coat!) I'm not getting my hopes up, after all, I scrubbed yesterday with no success.


If this is what we may have to end up doing to the pool IF IT WORKS in the spa, my question is now: how in the world can we sand/buff a 20,000 FB pool? How will we drain water from a fiberglass pool with no drain hole at the bottom? AND isn't it dangerous to empty a FG pool? I know it can be done, but I am sure there are several precautions to take. (I am ranting.)

Awaiting your input. Thanks bunches!

[PoolDoc]

Be careful.

If you expose the surface to air, put mix a 1:3 solution of muriatic acid (1/4 cup acid to 3/4 cup water) and then put a spoonful on the 'scale'. If it's calcium scale, it will fizz. I don't have any experience with FG pool surface problems, but right now, my guess would be manufacturer defect, not scale.

Once you grind, you've taken responsibility for it though. So, I'd hold off. You can still swim and NOT affect any warranty or mfg defect claim. Waterbear is out of touch at the moment, but he has some knowledge of FG pools. You might want to wait till he's back.

Also, I'd call the mfg back and ask "What sort of scale?"

I'll get your pics posted, but I don't think they will necessarily be that helpful, till we get someone who has some experience with FG.

[viking]

Thanks for the reply. I will wait.

The manufacturer did say it was calcium that fell out of solution due to high ph. I just read on the blog of a "dealer of our brand pool" that the manufacturer sent out a "technical release to their dealers regarding this issue"! I will also definitely call the manufacturer again and ask for a technician to come personally and provide steps for treatment that will not void my warranty. (I may call that dealer first and see what info I can gather from them.) We are not comfortable scrubbing everything. The surface already seems to have lost its shine. (FYI: The manufacturer actually performed and paid for the first acid wash treatment.)

I am aware that I cannot use specific names on your blog. (I will gladly email or message you any specific details if that helps.)

Here is some of the info that I found about the "technical release from the manufacturer" that seems to explain why the whiteness I have seems to be a part of the pool (smooth)...here goes: "If the problem is more severe, or the pool has been left with a high PH level for an extended time, the calcium deposits will combine with the chlorine in the pool and create a salt called Calcium Chloride. The salt will attach itself to the pool surfaces and cause areas of the gelcoat to look white. There are two stages of this advanced calcium chloride. The first, and easier to treat, stage is less advanced. If the gelcoat returns to normal when it’s hydrated (or just wet), then you can treat it using the same chemical solution as the less sever case mentioned above. However, it will take up to 6 months for the treatment to totally dissolve the calcium chloride. Due to the time this takes, and the fact that the water will be very acidic in this time, we recommend that this treatment be done in the off season. If, perchance, the salt deposits are visible even when they’re hydrated, the treatment is not as easy. An effective chemical treatment hasn’t been found or developed so the recommended solution is to remove the salt is to buff and polish the surface to return it to its previous condition."
....BUT the confusing for me is.... it says: ...CaCl will form if the problem is more severe??? I never had noticeable or rough calcium scaling stuck to the pool...(it started off white and smooth) ....so to me ... deposits must have still been suspended in order to combine with the chlorine to produce CaCl and then attach itself to the pool surface??? SOOO Confusing!.......

Thanks for your time. I am impressed with your site. I am very interested in using your no nonsense pool water maintenance program. I'll need help with that.

I will wait for your response. (There are SO many different solutions/remediations out there; it is scary!)

[PoolDoc]

"If the problem is more severe, or the pool has been left with a high PH level for an extended time, the calcium deposits will combine with the chlorine in the pool and create a salt called Calcium Chloride. The salt will attach itself to the pool surfaces and cause areas of the gelcoat to look white. There are two stages of this advanced calcium chloride. The first, and easier to treat, stage is less advanced. If the gelcoat returns to normal when it’s hydrated (or just wet), then you can treat it using the same chemical solution as the less sever case mentioned above. However, it will take up to 6 months for the treatment to totally dissolve the calcium chloride. Due to the time this takes, and the fact that the water will be very acidic in this time, we recommend that this treatment be done in the off season. If, perchance, the salt deposits are visible even when they’re hydrated, the treatment is not as easy. An effective chemical treatment hasn’t been found or developed so the recommended solution is to remove the salt is to buff and polish the surface to return it to its previous condition."

Your manufacturer is full of it. Calcium chloride is an EXTREMELY soluble material: at pool temperatures you can dissolve a cup of granular calcium chloride (sold in the pool trade as "calcium increaser) in a cup of water! There is no possible way it could coat your pool.

I don't know whether your manufacturer's tech guys are dishonest, or simply really, really ignorant.

Can you email me ([email protected]) the specifics of your problem . . . and a link to the tech bulletin? Meanwhile, I'm going to as Waterbear (who has some knowledge of fiberglass) and Chem_Geek (who knows chemistry) to take a look.

Sorry for your bad luck!

[chem geek]

Calcium chloride dissolves in water. It is the ingredient in products that increase Calcium Hardness (CH). It has a solubility in water (at 20ºC which is 68ºF) of 745 g/L which is 745,000 mg/L. Also, this solubility would not change significantly with pH. For the manufacturer to say that the calcium fell out of solution due to high pH but then to say that the scale is calcium chloride instead of calcium carbonate is just nutty.

Calcium carbonate scale is only rough to the touch if such scale is formed quickly. If it is formed slowly over time, then it can be smooth to the touch and be harder to remove, just like the regular calcium carbonate that is in plaster (you CAN remove it, of course, just as you can dissolve plaster, but becomes trickier). You may need to be a member of PGN to see this link, but it contains useful info and photos about scaling. See also this article on staining of fiberglass including scale from calcium, but this is calcium carbonate (sometimes combined with other metals to cause coloration).

Since your test data, including "TH" for total hardness, did not come from your own testing, then I wouldn't trust it. It's just more likely that your CH and TA were moderately high, but that the pH went much higher for an extended period of time. See this thread for another example of scale on fiberglass. You really need to get your own proper test kit -- the Taylor K-2006 (NOT K-2005).